Stevie, I'm kind of under the impression and correct me at any point, but I'm under the impression that a lot of us are walking around having experienced something that probably should be defined as traumatic. But we don't recognize it as such, or subconsciously maybe we're hesitant to define it that way. I'm really curious as to whether you have experience with the women that you work with where these women maybe don't feel like what they have experienced is big enough or significant enough to qualify as quote-unquote traumatic, but in fact, it is.

 

[Stevie] I think it's helpful, and what I like to do with my clients, is to start to really define trauma. Trauma is really anything that's distressing or disturbing and continues to be distressing and disturbing. So if you think about that in the context of our experiences there are lots of traumas that we experience and some of them stick out more than others in how we think about those traumas or how they stay with us, which is the part that can be worked on in therapy. I think that, especially today, where we're so exposed to other people's stories and we're exposed to the worst of the worst, these horrible or even national traumas, we start to compare and think that, "Oh I should be over this by now."

 

The reality is, is that if you're not over it by now, then that means something. That means that your brain's got kind of stuck on that distressing or disturbing event and it's all relative. I can't normalize that enough, trauma is relative to your experience and your truth.

[Samantha] Can you revisit one more time, or restate the definition of trauma that you started with?

 

[Stevie] A trauma is an event that is either distressing or disturbing to some degree. When we talk about trauma all of our brains, I think, automatically go to what we would say are the big t traumas. So losing somebody, like a car accident where there is this threat of death, or something really really that anybody could point to and say, "Oh my gosh, that's so traumatic." 

 

Then there's a little t trauma which doesn't mean that it's any less significant. It's just the things that are more relative to the person that might not be exactly life-threatening. But we can perceive things as life-threatening, or stick with us in a different way because to us it was distressing or disturbing. Those are the little key traumas that often go unnoticed.

 

[Samantha] Do you have any examples, Stevie, of little t traumas that moms may often encounter or women in general?

 

[Stevie] Yeah. If you're thinking about motherhood, just to put this into perspective like a big t trauma during motherhood would be something like miscarriage or infant loss or infertility. Those are big t traumas. A little t trauma could be, I remember one time that the doctor said something to me about, "Oh well, you know you've gained a lot of weight and this is going to be a hard pregnancy for you because of that." The way that your brain is holding onto that statement or feels about that can feel really traumatic because of how it's still affecting you. Say that there was a time that a lot of women if they have bleeding at the beginning of their pregnancy, that's really traumatic. But people say, "Oh that's normal, that can happen." But that was traumatic, and we don't really validate that or talk about those kinds of things enough.

​

I'm also thinking about postpartum. One of the things I'm really passionate about talking with moms about is, your body went through a trauma and re-trying to figure out how your body is after a baby and no one is talking to you about it and the pain and all the stuff that happens after you give birth. That can also be, in some ways, traumatic.  We have lots of complicated feelings about it because we think it shouldn't be traumatic. Right.

 

[Samantha] Do you think that it's problematic that we have the phrase 'it's normal' as a part of our vocabulary when it comes to certain experiences that make us feel like, "Well this is quote-unquote normal, it's not a problem, like why do I feel this way?" For example, I'm thinking about when we say things like, "Oh, it's normal to feel a little blue after you have the baby." or "It's normal that you experience a little bleeding." like you said. Do we need to start changing the words we're using and the semantics? Is that tied in some way to the way we're perceiving our experiences?

 

[Stevie] That's a great point. I think that when people say things like 'it's normal' they're trying to help that person feel less feared or like they're okay, but what it's doing is it's not validating their experience. What that person is saying when they're saying, "I'm feeling really down and I don't know what  to do with it." is they're coming to whoever it is, their friend, their health care provider, their therapist and they're saying, "Things feel really scary and out of control." When you say, "That's normal." you're telling them, "Okay well, you're just going to have to deal with that by yourself because everybody feels that way." And what we need is to have more language around that like, "How can I help? What does it feel like? Wow, that must feel really scary." instead of 'that's normal'. So yeah, 100 percent. We should rethink how we're responding with that.

 

[Samantha] Yeah, I think that's so interesting. It's so easy to, without even thinking about it, say stuff like that. But as I'm talking too, I'm realizing I can see how that would make it feel, like you said, like those feelings are invalid

 

I remember you talking, Stevie, before our interview we were going back and forth with some ideas. One of the things you brought up is that you enjoy helping women radically accepting their feelings as valid, which I feel like ties in well to what we're talking about. Can you explain that a little bit? What that looks like? Why it's important?

 

[Stevie] So often, we feel this push in a hurry to push past that feeling of being hurt or feeling down because sometimes we don't know why. If we try to push past that too quickly and don't pay attention to that part of you that feels that way, it's going to be screaming a little bit louder at you. So the more that you say, "I don't feel sad I'm okay." the more the sadness or anxiety, or whatever it is, is going to be like, "Hey, Hey You, I'm Still Here. Listen to me. Help me. Do something about this."

 

What we want to do is have some curiosity and acceptance around that feeling instead of working against it, or denying that it's there, because often it has something to tell us.  Especially when we're talking about moms. I always tell them would you tell your toddler," Oh just don't feel sad." or "It's not okay to feel hurt by something that somebody said." No! Because you see that their feelings are there. Whether or not we want to have them, whether or not that feeling is completely based in reality, is a different discussion but it doesn't make it any less real. So we can't pretend that it's not there. I hope that answers your question.

 

[Samantha] I'm curious though because sometimes as we're going through that process it's like, gosh, digging up that feeling or pressing into that resistance is super uncomfortable. So there's this built-in incentive to just not do it because it's like, "Oh this doesn't feel good." How do you encourage people to work through that in that process of accepting their feelings as valid?

 

[Stevie]What I like to do in therapy is normalize that hesitancy to not want to go there. The reality is, I don't like to go there, I'm a person too. I'm not like, "Yeah, let's really go down this road and explore these really sad thoughts."

 

What we have to do first is to build up safety around that feeling knowing that okay if you choose to think about that sadness or explore what that's like a little bit more and give yourself some compassion around that feeling, but you have to know that you can come back to this sense of safety and warmth and whatever the opposite of that feeling is, you have to know that that's there waiting for you on the other side and that you can access that. Does that make sense?

 

[Samantha] It does, Yeah.

 

[Stevie] So it's not just throwing that person out into the deep end and saying, "Let's just accept this." They have to know that they're going to be safe and they can come back to a place that feels okay. 

 

We do, in session with a client, there are lots of ways that we can come back to that sense of safety and calm, but no one's going to go out in the deep end if they don't know when. You have coping skills to know that you can be okay if you decide to explore that a little bit.

 

[Samantha] As you're describing that and creating that analogy of swimming in the deep, I'm imagining someone standing at this ocean of these deep thoughts and feelings and just at first dipping their big toe in and then taking it out, stepping back on the sand. Then maybe putting their whole toe in, coming back out and walking. Can it be a process like that?

 

[Stevie] Yes. And I love that you use that analogy because I totally do that. I say we just jump in and then we'll dip out when it's too much. Use that as the control units and we're going to listen to your body's signals and to what's going on, to know when it's too much and we'll tap back out. 

 

Yeah, it's just building up this tolerance for being able to handle that emotion and going back and forth between the two. It's a learned skill and that's why there's therapy, but yeah, it's the exact same analogy that I use.

 

[Samantha] Look at that Stevie. Am I supposed to be a therapist, is that what this means?

 

[Stevie] Probably. You probably should come to the therapist end.

 

[Samantha] Oh my gosh. Can I just come be your friend, Stevie? I'll be like in your pocket just learning from you. So I'm really curious next, Stevie, about these big t's versus little t's that you were talking about. The thing I'm wondering about is, is the process of addressing those working through those healing from those the same, or is it different given that one is big and one is little?

 

[Stevie] No, it's not different. It's not different because when we talk about, to not get too into the therapeutic process, but when we talk about how our brain stores trauma and our bodies store trauma, oftentimes it feels the same. 

I could guarantee that anyone who's listening, or myself personally, I've had a reaction where I'm like, "Whoa, that felt really big. I don't know why I responded that way. I don't know why I feel so anxious or sad or whatever the emotion is but I do feel a big reaction to that." So the body reaction, the emotional reaction to either type of trauma usually is really disturbing. It doesn't matter. Both are valid and both have the same kinds of routes to work on them. 

 

Now sometimes, if there was a threat of death or something like that, that can feel really emotionally overwhelming, and so again there has to be a lot of safety built around working through something like that. But I approach them in the same way and they can both be healed in the same manner, if that makes sense.

 

[Samantha] So what does it look like and mean, Stevie, to be quote-unquote, healed? Is it about the way that it feels in the body and that it no longer has those same feelings associated with it, or what specifically does that mean?

 

[Stevie] Yeah. So I use a specific type of therapy called EMDR. What EMDR does is it helps the brain to re-process a big event that feels stuck. So oftentimes when we have a trauma we develop this way of thinking about ourselves or about the world that are less than helpful. Say it's not adaptive. With that memory or the content of that memory, and the feelings that come with that comes all those body sensations, comes all of those reactions today. If you think about how everyone today says, "I'm triggered by that." You're triggered by things and that seems like somatic, or in the body sensation, comes up for you because it's rooted in this trauma.

 

So what EMDR does is it helps to go back, and I like to say, it's like uncoupling the really dramatic somatic reaction. So in your body reaction, dramatic emotional reaction, and unhelpful thought. It uncouples all of that from the memory itself so that when you look at what happened to you, say it's a birth trauma, you can see it for what it is without all of the guilt or shame or that tightness in your stomach or the desire to cry. Then it also helps to then look at similar situations that would be quote-unquote triggering with a more neutral perspective, where you can bring your wise mind into it and you're not just in your body or just in your emotions whenever a similar situation arises.

 

[Samantha] I see. That is so interesting, Stevie, because you brought up the emotions of guilt and shame if those are classified as emotions but, I can see how in so many traumatic experiences related to birth and motherhood there inherently is a lot of guilt and shame in those places because we're moms and we're trying to do what's best for our kids and in those types of situations miscarriages birth trauma postpartum depression and an all of those areas. There can be a lot of guilt and shame, can't there? So how does EMDR, if it's possible to answer this question without getting too technical. I don't even know if that's feasible. Can you explain how a typical mother accomplishes that without getting us totally lost in your wisdom?

 

[Stevie] Yes. So whenever a client asks me this I'm like, "Okay, hang in here with me for a second, I know it sounds kind of weird and I'm going to just say we got to acknowledge that first." So EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.

 

So when I talk to my clients about what that looks like is, it looks like using what's called bilateral stimulation. So that means moving your eyes back and forth. So crossing your midline, like if you drew a line all the way from the top of your head that crosses your nose. You want to cross the midline so you are tracking back and forth across your midline with your eyes, or tapping on both sides of your body. So either tapping the tops of your hands or feeling what are called buzzies, which you just hold them and they alternately buzz, so stimulating both sides of your body at different times.

 

What that does is it helps the brain to bring online both functioning parts of both halves of your brain. The purpose of that is because when we have a trauma it is stuck in one side. So it feels really emotional, out of control, scary in the body and we can't logically process it. It helps to, basically what I ask clients to do, is bring up that memory, that freeze-frame of that memory, and notice how their body feels in the context of that memory. And then we do what's called that bilateral stimulation, so moving your eyes back and forth. Again it sounds... People are like, "Why is that?" But what it helps to do is it really re-processes and reorganizes the memory in a way that's helpful to you, and that makes sense and that you don't have to consistently and constantly revisit. 

 

I could go on and on but there have been so many studies it's a very widely research modality about its efficacy. It's so extremely powerful for helping people not feel so stuck in that part of their brain. I hope that answers it.

 

[Samantha] I mean that's fascinating and also, if I may say, you did a great job condensing that down, so that we could all handle it.

 

[Stevie] It's kind of a daunting task.

 

[Samantha] Obviously, EMDR is something that an individual would come and do under the purview of a therapist or with the help of a therapist. Last time, when I was talking with Jessica, she introduced us to cognitive behavioral therapy and was able to give us some practical tools and examples that a woman could use in her own life on a daily basis with that. Could you do the same thing for us, in terms of traumatic experiences, give us some tools and strategies that we can use on our own, beyond going to work with a therapist and using EMDR, which sounds amazing, but for the woman who maybe isn't quite there yet.

 

[Stevie] What I would first say is to go back and listen to Jessica's podcast because I start all my clients off with CBT. I use a lot of CBT,  so a lot of those skills that she is using are amazing and set clients up for a good job and taking care of themselves. 

 

The other thing that I would say to do is start to incorporate mindfulness and meditation, and I can feel a collective eye roll, but people when I say, "What do you think about meditation?" they're like, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to." or "I'm not good at it." or "I can't do it." I'm like, "Well actually, everybody can meditate." You don't have to be a monk. 

 

[Samantha] You mean you're not a monk?

 

[Stevie] I know, isn't that surprising that I'm not. 

 

They start with meditation because what that helps you to do is to start to be able to have more of this noticing attitude with regards to your thoughts or feelings, and also to cultivate this sense of 'oh I can always come back to my breath or come back to whatever feels good. I don't have to follow a thought down a rabbit hole that makes me feel terrible. If we're talking about shame, I don't have to follow that shame thought all the way down to the very end. I can just notice that I have that thought, and then I can come back to whatever feels good. I can come back to my breath. I can come back to noticing how cute my baby looks in that outfit. I can notice these sorts of things and not feel attached to it. 

 

The other benefit of, I am specifically talking about like mindfulness meditation, is it cultivates its awareness of what's going on in your body. Which I'm super passionate about incorporating the body in therapy, because we live in our body we can't deny that our bodies tell us things, and you can start to become a student of yourself by listening to what your body is telling you, what it's telling you it needs. Which is so critical if you have a newborn, you also need to be listening to what your body is telling you it needs.

 

So those are my two biggest things, is listening to your body, doing a body scan, just noticing what's there and what it's trying to tell you. And then the meditation piece of noticing thoughts and coming back to a place that feels okay.

 

[Samantha] Stevie, could you give us a couple of examples quick of what listening to our body might sound like or what our body might be trying to tell us.

 

[Stevie] Maybe I'll just go first. And I'll say, I wouldn't ask my client to do anything I wouldn't do. so I'll just give you an example of something that consistently happens for me. I run a little bit anxious, I know that about myself, and I know that for me whenever I do a body scan and then just kind of like checking in with myself that day, I'll either feel a rapid heart rate or, if I'm feeling anxious I'm not saying this is every day, but like a rapid heart rate, an elevated heart rate I can notice that. As I do a body scan, so I'll go from the top of my head slowly just scanning all the way down to my feet. I can notice that raid heart rate or sometimes it's kind of like a fuzzy dizzy feeling in my head.

 

What that tells me, and this is what you would work out through experimentation or going to see a therapist and them giving you ideas is like, okay, well if I have a rapid heart where feels good in my body that I can bring my awareness to instead and see if I can get that heart rate to come down. Usually, it's feeling solid in my feet, or just noticing how my breath is, and then I can regulate my heart rate in that way. 

 

Sometimes if I'm feeling dizzy it's like, oh maybe I feel like I can move or something, that might feel good. Learning how to regulate your system in a way, and sometimes it's really basic. I'm thinking about new moms that I work with and I'm like do a body scan, like oh my gosh I just realized for the first time that I'm really hungry. I'm like, poor girl, whip out that granola bar! Let's eat while we're doing therapy. You need to recognize that for yourself. It can be so different things, your body could tell you so much.

 

[Samantha] Something that comes up a lot in my profession. I'm a personal trainer working with moms who are pregnant and postpartum. A lot of times, tied to that process of trying to exercise and take care of our physical bodies, there can be some negative perceptions of ourselves and our bodies that feed into that that need to be addressed. More specifically what I'm talking about is when women have a negative body image or a negative self-image, and that is the driving factor for them wanting to pursue fitness. 

 

We talk about this idea of turning those negative thoughts about your body into neutral thoughts about your body. Not jumping all the way to having positive thoughts, because that's kind of a big leap. But just trying to neutralize those thoughts about yourselves so that they're no longer screaming negative thoughts but they're just very simply, thoughts. 

 

I guess I should give an example really quick, and then I'm going to ask you a question. For example, instead of saying, "Gosh I just really dislike these stretch marks on my belly." saying something like, "I have stretch marks on my belly." Then take it a step further, and thinking about what those stretch marks mean, or why they're there. Those stretch marks are an indication that I gave birth and that I grew my baby.

 

Is it possible to go through that same type of process when we're talking about non-physical stuff, so things beyond our bodies, but like traumatic experiences? 

 

[Stevie] Kind of, neutralizing them, not making them like rose-colored glasses.

 

[Samantha] Yeah exactly.

 

[Stevie] Realistic or neutral thoughts. Yeah. What we want to do whenever, when I use the word healing from trauma, I think for some people that could be like, "Oh gosh, that's not possible". You know, the word healing is kind of weird. We're not saying it didn't happen. We're not saying it's great and wonderful. What we're saying is that that happened. 

 

I'm thinking about, say there's a birth. Your birth wasn't how you wanted it to go. Instead of saying something like, "Oh my gosh, I was so unprepared." or "I didn't do what was best for my baby in that moment." or "I failed at that birth because I X, Y, Z". Right. Saying something like, "Wow, that did not go how I planned it to go, and even though I'm not okay with that, I can be grateful for the baby I have and I can focus on that instead and have some compassion for myself for the hard choices I had to make in that moment in getting to that place." instead of 'its okay'. That it was everything I wanted it to be.

 

Yeah. It's totally possible to get there with non-body related issues. A lot of my clients when we talk about what they'd like to think about, or what they'd like their mindsets to be like, in terms of their trauma, a lot of them have a fear around 'I also don't want to lose that part because that makes me who I am. And that makes me the resilient strong person that I am today. I don’t want to lose that'. We don't take that away. But what we hope to shift, just like you said, is that really negative part that doesn't serve us anymore.

 

[Samantha] I think that's really interesting. It's like these traumatic experiences, these things that are really hard, they have multiple components to them, right. There's these negative components that, like you said, don't serve us. Then there's this opportunity to find purpose in it too, in this like character refining self refining process that comes out of it too. 

 

That's interesting because it's like, I was talking about this in a previous episode, It's like we would never have chosen that path or that thing for ourselves. Right. We would have been crazy to have chosen it, but there's an opportunity to find purpose and meaning in it. I mean I hear that, and I'm kind of encouraged by that. You know.

 

[Stevie] Yeah exactly. We want it to be a part of our story but not be the only part of our story.

 

[Samantha] I know that for a lot of women, we're all curious like, "Okay, I want to prevent birth trauma, I want to avoid it, what can I do? It's like the million-dollar question, Stevie.  How can we avoid it? Do you have a million-dollar answer for us?

 

[Stevie] I wish I did. 

 

[Samantha] Darn it.

 

[Stevie] I came prepared for every scenario. Right. When I think about being prepared for any sort of trauma, it's like you don't want to brace and be rigid for the collision. What you want to do, is to develop some flexibility in thinking about your ability to handle it. Knowing that even if things don't go the way that you want it to go, you know that you can handle it no matter what. Even though it might be really hard to handle, you know that you have some skills built up and that you have some support built up around you in case.

 

[Stevie] I'm really thinking about, maybe not necessarily trying to avoid birth trauma, but knowing you have these resiliency factors put in place. If we think about trauma, the other part of that trauma is this resiliency piece, which is so important. We can build up, or you can build up by yourself, or in therapy, things that are going to make you more resilient. Things that I'm thinking about are, good boundaries with others, regular self-care, communication with other people, support around breastfeeding, or support around 'how am I going to get some alone time after I have this baby', support around 'who am I going to talk to if things feel hard'.

 

So already having those things in place, instead of something happening and you be like, "I don't know how to cope at all." One, expectations and two building up resiliency factors ahead of time is what I would say. Because the reality is we can't control what happens and that's really uncomfortable for us to think about.

 

[Samantha] Stevie, what tips do you have for someone who's gone through an experience in birth where they felt completely blindsided? Because often, when things go, I don't want to say wrong, but when things go unexpectedly inverse it can often feel like it came out of nowhere and all of a sudden you're blindsided and you're going through this process that you did not intend to go through. So for that person, how do you take that and get past that deer in headlights, like 'whoa that came out of nowhere', and by the way that felt very, maybe, unfair, or like how did that happen. Just like that overwhelm, like what on earth just happened. How do you move on from that to get to that place where you're talking about where you're like, "Okay, I have what it takes to get through this. I know that I am a resilient person. I'm going to tap into my community. Here we go. I've got this." Do you know what I mean?

 

[Stevie] Yeah like how do you get from that shock feeling and despair.

 

[Samantha] Is it just time or is there something else involved?

 

[Stevie] I think, and I know through practice and research, so I don't want to say I know, maybe I should just say I know that storytelling is so powerful. When something like that happens, you need to be able to tell somebody your story and just feel heard. I think that the first thing to do would choose a safe person that you know is just going to listen and not try to fix, and just hear you. So that you can say out loud, "I did not like that when that doctor didn't give me choice." or "That felt really scary when things got really rushed and they were telling me that the baby wasn't going to be okay." Just really to say what your experience was and how you felt about it without interruption, or a 'yeah, but' or a silver lining being put in there. 

 

You need to tell your story. Otherwise, it's going to feel like something you shouldn't say. So find somebody safe and tell your story. Then it comes to if you keep telling this story, and you're using all of your coping skills every time you feel upset about what happened then it still feels stuck, then it's time for therapy. Because if it's feeling stuck, that's telling you something about that really touched a nerve and you need a higher level of care for that instead of just out loud processing your story. Then it doesn't have to feel stuck like that forever or still scary. But yeah, I think the first thing is just to talk about it. Talk about it with somebody safe.

 

[Samantha] And that leads me really naturally into my next question, and my last question, because we're kind of out of time, which is a bummer. I'm wondering, Stevie, your thoughts, or insights, or recommendations, I guess, about best practices when it comes to communicating about trauma or being on the listening end of someone who is coming to us to express their big t or little t. What are some thoughts you have for us, some takeaways that we can put in our pocket and act upon the next time we're in a situation where we're talking about our own trauma, or talking with someone else about theirs?

 

[Stevie] I would say if you are the person that's feeling the after-effects of some trauma, choose wisely who you talk to about it, and be clear about what your expectations are when you talk about your trauma. Just notice how it feels when you talk about it. If it's still really difficult, know that you can get help with that. That it doesn't have to feel that way forever. Then for the people who are listening, you don't need to fix it. The reality is if you aren't that person's therapist you cannot fix their trauma. What you can do, is you can be a safe person that says, "Wow that was really hard. I'm so sorry that happened." Just listen to them and not try to fix. Just be there, just be a witness to what they're telling you. 

 

I think it's really hard because we want to feel useful and we want to fix that and feeling powerless with them is really hard. But when somebody is in that space, they just need somebody to come alongside them and say, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened to you." That's really all that person needs. And it seems silly but it really is really really powerful to feel validated and just to feel heard.

 

[Samantha] Oh absolutely. And just as a reminder don't say, "Hey it's normal." 

 

[Stevie] Oh hey, that's normal. Don't feel that way. Yeah, let's not do that, people.

 

[Samantha] Things not to say, with Stevie. Here we are. 

 

[Stevie] Exactly. 

 

[Samantha] So, Stevie, Do you have any other thoughts you want to leave us with, or any other bit of encouragement before I have to say goodbye?

 

[Stevie] The only other thing I would say is that, and the thing that I tell my clients every time I meet a client for the first time, is you have all the answers already inside you. You have the ability to heal and you, your mind, and your body, your spirit are so wise. Everybody has that power inside of them. So I just want to leave everybody with that bit of hope, that they are strong.

 

[Samantha] Oh, thanks so much for that, Stevie. This has been a really great conversation and I am so thankful for you and your wisdom that you shared with us today. Thank you so much.

 

[Stevie] Thank you for you, and the great, amazing work that you're doing, and all of this stuff that you're bringing to women in this area. So, we appreciate you.

 

[Samantha] Thanks so much, Stevie. And you know what, after we hop off here, I'm actually going straight to an interview with your colleague, Maureen, so that's fun.

 

[Stevie] She's amazing, so you will have a great time. 

 

[Samantha] We'll just keep the good times rollin. 

 

[Stevie] Keep it rolling. 

 

[Samantha] Yes.

 

[Samantha] Okay, Stevie well that... I'm just going to press end on the recording. That was awesome. Thank you so much. 

 

[Stevie] Thank you. That was great.